Episode 6
In this episode, Michelle sits down with Josepha Haden Chomphosy, the Executive Director of WordPress, to talk about the upcoming underrepresented gender release team, why it matters, how it works, and what’s in store for inclusion in WordPress.
Mentioned in this episode:
- The tweet that started it all
- All-women Release Squad
- Misogyny in WordPress is Real
- Preparing for the Next Women & Nonbinary Release Squad
- You Were Made For This
- A Non-Traditional Blessing
- Light the World
- Light the World – Choral Edition
Episode Transcript
Intro 00:00:02 Welcome to WP Constellations, a podcast exploration of the WordPress universe. Brought to you by StellarWP.
Michelle 00:00:14 Welcome to our next episode of WP Constellations for StellarWP. And I am just over the moon to be speaking with Josepha Hayden today. Josepha, thank you for joining me.
Josepha 00:00:26 Hi. Thanks for having me.
Michelle 00:00:27 It’s my pleasure. So we’re gonna talk today about the underrepresented gender release squad. First of all, I love the name. Like, it got a little confusing last time we started off as all women, including non-binary. Yes. And then if some people said all women, and, um, and so I like that. It’s like, it’s encompassing. It’s really great. So I just wanted to put that out there.
Josepha 00:00:47 Yeah. The way it started last time, I like, I did that to myself. I wished for something on Twitter and then <laugh> having wished for it on Twitter, it came true. And that’s so rare for Twitter.
Michelle 00:00:59 I know, right? <laugh>. Well, as I was telling you before the show, I wished for cowbells and now I am the owner of far too many cowbells. So that’s Twitter.
Josepha 00:01:07 Careful what you wish for <laugh>. Exactly.
Michelle 00:01:09 <laugh>. Um, so I really wanna talk, so I was at the, the, um, community summit last week, and I love some of the topics that really revolve around DEIB and the work that as a community and as the open source project, I think we’re doing really good, excellent focused work, um, on WordPress moving DEIB forward. And for anybody listening who’s wondering about acronyms that does stand for diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. So my question to you is, can you tell us a little bit about the impetus behind that movement, the DEIB movement and some of the specific initiatives that have come about in the last few years?
Josepha 00:01:52 Uh, I assume you mean the DEIB movement for WordPress, like moving that forward press not, not like worldwide though, specifically WordPress.
Michelle 00:01:58 Yes. Yes. <laugh>.
Josepha 00:02:03 Um, yeah, I mean, so that is something that was being worked on before I actually arrived, uh, in the, in the WordPress project as far as I can tell. Um, that was something that was started by Jen Milo and then carried on through Andrea Middleton. And then is something that obviously I care a lot about. Like, that’s part of what brought me to WordPress in the first place. Um, and so that has been happening since probably like 2011. And as with anything that you have to make big changes for, but you want those changes to stick, like sometimes you gotta move a little slower than, than you want to so that people like get used to the change and, and expand with you as opposed to like a rubber band, like being pulled quite tight and then naturally wanting to snap back. You give them a little bit of space to learn and breathe with you.
Josepha 00:02:56 And so, um, that’s kind of how that all seems to have happened early on in the WordPress project. Um, but then when I came, like when I was hired by Automattic, when I came into, uh, this project that direction, like specifically I was working with, um, urban youth, which is of course, uh, in many places just code for black children. Yeah. And, and the kids that I was working with at the time, so I was working in, in Kansas City at the time, um, with one group that was teaching technical skills to, um, uh, primarily the black youth that we have in the city, but also some, um, students who, who were disadvantaged for various other reasons. And then also our Hispanic community, our, our, um, uh, our like yeah. Children of migrant workers that we have here in Kansas City as well. The work that I was doing there was more around like getting, um, devices to them. Like we had not quite gotten to the the digital divide work of like making sure they know how to use the devices. We were still just working on getting devices to them and so I took all the learnings that I had from there and helped pull them into the WordPress project gradually as we went and, and keep trying to move every little thing forward. So yeah.
Michelle 00:04:29 I love that. And I love that the, the world in general seems to be Yes, splintered in a lot of ways, but also I think some of the pushback is because people are uncomfortable sometimes with change, but change is important and inevitable and inclusion and all that goes with it is so important. So I am so happy to be part of that.
Josepha 00:04:49 A thing that people don’t, don’t remember sometimes about change or maybe don’t know about change is like, even if it’s a good change, you’re still losing something. Like you’re letting go of one thing and picking up something else, and that space between letting go of especially a good thing, uh, and moving towards something that is hopefully better. Like of course that’s scary. Change is hard no matter, no matter where it came from, why you had to do it and like your net benefits at the end.
Michelle 00:05:20 It’s scary
Josepha 00:05:20 Every which way. So Yeah. I totally get it.
Michelle 00:05:23 Absolutely. Growth is work. It is. It doesn’t just happen for sure.
Josepha 00:05:27 That’s right.
Michelle 00:05:28 So I wanna talk about the upcoming gen, uh, underrepresented gender release. It’s gonna take me a little while to let that roll off my tongue, but underrepresented gender. Absolutely. So I’m gonna kind of go back time-wise a little bit and I am reading my questions. Yeah. ’cause I crafted them so well. <laugh>
Josepha 00:05:43 They’re beautiful questions.
Michelle 00:05:46 <laugh>, thank you. In November of 2019, you commented on a tweet from Francesca Marano saying, “I have a stretch goal of an all women release squad by the end of 2020.” I’d love to learn more about how that idea came to you and the process to go from a comment on a tweet to the make post that you did in March, 2020 about an all women release squad that would then become known as the all women/non-binary release squad. So what was that process?
Josepha 00:06:12 Yeah, so that is something that I had been wanting to do for quite a while, but one thing that I know during all of the years of working on, um, DEIB work is that like there is the inclusion part and then there’s the diversity part, right? Like it’s, it’s right in the, in the name, it’s right in the acronym. But I have learned over time that just calling in diverse voices and diverse people without making sure that your environment is welcoming and willing to include them actually does not serve the purpose. Like it turns all of those voices that are showing up with trust in you into just kind of token like, look, I found them kind of actors in this space. Which isn’t fair to, for one, the WordPress project. ’cause I know and believe that we are better than that.
Josepha 00:07:08 Um, but also certainly not fair to the people who are coming to us with that trust. I really believe that in order for any, um, better diversity to work in an organization, you absolutely have to start by cleaning up your own house. And so that was an idea that I had had for a long time, but I just kind of knew that we weren’t ready. Not because, um, WordPressers are not generally pretty welcoming and inclusive, but because there’s a difference between everybody kind of knowing that we are and us saying plainly what we are and this is how we show it. Like this is how we walk that walk along with talking the talk. Um, so it had been in my mind and then when I tweeted it, like I honestly didn’t expect anyone to be like, heck yeah, let’s do it. <laugh> <laugh>. And I dunno why.
Josepha 00:08:04 Right. It was a big surprise. I don’t know why I was surprised by that, because I do know that WordPressers in general are so just kind of generous in giving and, and welcoming of, of people. Um, but yeah, I was like, I wanna do this by the end of 2020, which if we all recall correctly, and also for future historians in the world, like that was the year where we encountered Covid for the first time. That is a year when we were having to learn how to work together by staying apart, which was so hard for WordPressers. Like we are a bunch of introverts. I know, not me obviously, but like it’s a lot of introverts running around in here. And so on the one hand you’d think that was gonna be easy, and on the other hand, we just love each other a lot, <laugh>.
Josepha 00:08:49 So it was really hard for us to do that. Um, but yeah. And so like the process from that wishful tweet that I made all the way to like getting it done was a lot of, a lot of work on the, on the backend. Like Yeah. Preparing everyone for it versus actually doing the work. So the first thing that I had to do was come to terms with what I was potentially doing to, at the time, the women who were joining me in that, um, before it had turned into the women and non-binary squad, I really worried so much that I was putting everyone in danger. And I was putting them right into the cross hairs of people who are bigoted and don’t like the idea that women should have a space at the table and also, you know, a plate with food on it, like
Michelle 00:09:40 <laugh>, <laugh>, the whole thing.
Josepha 00:09:42 Um, and so I really worried, I spent probably like, after it looked like people were rallying around it, I spent probably two or three weeks talking through like whether or not this was a selfish desire for me to be able to do that. Uh, after I talked to like 25 people and got all of the panic out, then I was like, okay, we can do it and and put together a plan to like introduce as many women and non-binary folks as wanted to learn how to do this to the process as early as possible. So like, they had specific active cohorts with the major release beforehand. I, if I recall correctly, they then also like, um, ran with the leads that lead group’s support the minor release after it, or one of the minor releases after it and then, uh, led their own release after that. And so it was a long, long process, but also I think really valuable.
Michelle 00:10:45 So I did too. And, uh, and you said, you know, people rallying around it and everything and, and that was certainly true. There was this feeling of joy and glee around the fact that we were able to do something like this. But the opposite was also true. A smaller faction, of course. But the opposite was also true. Um, yeah. For example, I, I remember telling my father, I’m going to be part of this all women’s release squad. And his response was, well, that’s not fair. And we had a long conversation about why his take on that was wrong. Um, he never changed. He never changed his mind. Dad, you’re just wrong. He never changed his mind. And that was okay. We had to agree to disagree on some things because you’re not gonna change everybody’s mind. But the release squad did come under some fire from certain factions within WordPress.
Josepha 00:11:33 Absolutely. As a matter of fact. And outside of WordPress too.
Michelle 00:11:35 Yeah, I actually wrote an entire article on post status called Misogyny in WordPress is Real, based on some of the fire that I particularly came under and other people with that. So do you anticipate that we’ll see that again with this next release squad of underrepresented genders? And what is your, your advice to the community when we encounter adversarial commentary like that?
Josepha 00:11:58 Yeah. Um, I’m gonna answer those two questions and I might need you to remind me of them again when we get there. Sure. But first I do want to address the initial question, the initial issue of like, sure there was misogyny and we all kind of experienced it in that moment. And it is exactly what I was worried about. But also like, I, I can’t actually save us from that outside of WordPress. And so of course not, you know? Um, but like I also got quite a few conversations, messages, DMs, about like how I needed to examine what it was that made me feel like having such an exclusive thing was good. Um, and also in that timeframe, like my entire leadership team was women and also got a lot of feedback about how like, I need to examine why it is that I am bigoted against men.
Josepha 00:12:53 Right. And what I told everybody at the time and what I would tell everyone again. And if it ever comes up again, I’ll say it again, like sure. If you look at a situation where I have primarily women in my leadership team, ’cause I still do have primarily women in my leadership team. Um, yeah, you could say that I have a discriminatory practice in selection. But also you always have to look at the broader context. Like overwhelmingly it’s dudes in technology. I think it’s fine to have one leadership team that’s women. I think it’s gonna be okay. So far so good. And that’s fine. Turns out I’m not gonna let go of that one either. Uh, so yeah, so your question was what do we do if we encounter it now? And yes. Also, like, do I anticipate it, I guess.
Josepha 00:13:45 Other way around? Do I anticipate it happening again? What do we do about it now? Yes. Um, so on the one hand, I do anticipate it. Again, I don’t think that I’m going to run into it as much as I did last time around, just ’cause I was such an unknown quantity to people. Um, and, and so I think that I probably won’t encounter it too much, but I do think that a lot of the, the folks in our underrepresented gender release are going to get a lot of questions about like why they’re doing it, why we think it’s important, should it matter? Like, aren’t we in a society where you can just be a person? Which obviously that’s not true. And so like, I think that, that absolutely there will be those questions. And on the one hand, I do think that it makes sense to address them quickly and neatly, but I don’t think that those sorts of arguments deserve to eat from our plates.
Josepha 00:14:35 Like, their opinion on whether or not we have rights, whether we matter, whether we exist, kind of are irrelevant. Like I don’t want people to be able to just abuse us and anybody else without anyone calling them on it, but I also don’t think that, um, after an initial moment continuing to let them just steal your joy is your responsibility. Like it’s not your responsibility to entertain the idea that you don’t matter and you shouldn’t be in technology and you don’t have rights because you’re not exactly the type of person that someone expects to see. And so I, the way that I handled it last time around, and the way that I would encourage anyone to handle it this time also is to say, Hey, I get it. Here are the facts and this is why it matters. Thanks for your feedback and call. I just have a, I just have a different opinion.
Michelle 00:15:30 <laugh>, I just probably, my, my usual response is, you’re, you’re welcome to your opinion. I’m just grateful that your opinion has no sway in this matter, is the way I usually say it.
Josepha 00:15:39 Yeah. And that’s also true.
Michelle 00:15:44 For sure as the executive, I’m sorry, the WordPress, executive director. Executive director of WordPress, I probably get it backwards. Yeah. What’s your role in this release? Or what is your role in this release squad and is it any different than what you do with other release squads?
Josepha 00:16:00 Yeah, so the release, the, the leader of a release team, a release squad, um, a lot of the work is like making sure that when we need something, we have it, whether it’s like extra time from people or unblocking things on a technical standpoint or, or in the project as a whole. Um, and so that role will essentially be the same for me here. Uh, I will make sure that when we have questions, I have answers as best I can, or if not, I go get them and come back and, frequently as a tiebreaker. Um, now there is a complication in that because often when there is an unbreakable tie that can also not be broken by a release squad leader, they come to me or Matt and be like, Hey <laugh>, we’re super duper drawn on this and we need you to just give us some, some opinion.
Josepha 00:16:55 And so on the one hand, it kind of shortens the path to final decisions. And on the other hand, people will have questions about like, how do we know which hat you have on when you’re making a decision. But in general, that release lead role is the same across the space. It’s saying like, we believe that we’re gonna get these primary features. We believe we’re gonna get these major bugs, get everything else in as best you can. And just kind of keeping the train on the tracks. It’s, uh, it’s a very much like a traffic control position.
Michelle 00:17:28 So I, I remember my daughter saying to me once when I had my first role as a supervisor and other people were working under me, and she was, she was in grade school at the time. I would say, well, I have to work late. She goes, but you’re the boss. Don’t you have, like, don’t you have more time? Don’t you have less responsibility? And I remember saying to her, oh honey, I wish that were true <laugh>, but unfortunately now I’m responsible for more people. And so yeah, there’s, there’s this idea that if you sit at the top that you only have to like rule and make decisions from your throne. But, but I know that number one is not true in general and for certain it’s not true of you who rolls up your sleeves and gets involved with the things that need to be done.
Josepha 00:18:08 Yeah. Simon Sinek and he, he is like, if I ever get a chance to see him speak, I will, uh, like wild horses could not keep me.
Michelle 00:18:17 He’s one of my favorites. I’ll be there with you <laugh>
Josepha 00:18:18 writers of leadership, right? Yeah. He had this quote, and I’m not gonna get it right, so we can share it in, in show notes or something later. But, he said this thing where he was like, becoming a leader does not give you the right to do nothing. Like you’re not, you haven’t earned the right to do less. What you have is you have accepted the responsibility to do more. And I believe in that, like, I know that I am not coding anything for core period, but also, like that doesn’t mean that that is something where I can just be like, well, I hope core’s good.
Michelle 00:18:52 <laugh>. Exactly. Like it’s, you don’t need to, you don’t need to know the code to be able to help make sure that everything is going the right way and doing what is best to happen. For sure. Um, yeah. No, I love that. Uh, so this past weekend was WordCamp US. And prior to that we had the, the community summit. Um, as part of this podcast, I interviewed I think 10 people Saturday morning with almost no voice, but it, it was still good. I asked them what they hoped or expected to see within WordPress over the next year. And many said that they were excited about this release team and hoped for a future where release teams like this weren’t necessary. As we see more inclusion in the future, do you foresee other underrepresented teams in the future, how do you think we can keep the momentum for this kind of inclusion? And do you think we will also have the need to continue to do this? Or do you think that we’ll be able to have more integration going forward? I know that’s a lot.
Josepha 00:19:47 Yeah. I love No, no, I love this question and I’m gonna try to answer it all, but also I love that you just, you’re just gonna have to like, check off the things that I get and we’ll circle back to the things that I don’t get. Absolutely. Um, so to answer the, like the Yes/No question first. Um, do I see the future of other release squads like this? Like, do I see a future need for them? Yes, absolutely. And I, I don’t love the answer, but also it is the only possible answer. We will always have to do this kind of release. Um, do I hope it is not always underrepresented gender? Like, would I love it if the BlackPress crew were like, you know what we’re gonna do, run a release, get in here and do it.
Josepha 00:20:36 Like, I think that would be lovely. Um, and I would absolutely make as much space for them to do that as they would need and want. Um, so that’s, that’s the yes/no answer in there. Um, and now to get into the why behind it, because there will be a lot of people who don’t like the answer. I too wish that there were a way for us to say we now have had underrepresented releases and, and, um, teams in every sector of the world. And therefore officially we have fixed bigotry, and I call it good. I wish it were a switch, right? Um, but there is this, there, it is not easy to see when you are either not directly benefiting from it or not directly related to it. It’s very hard to see how much activity, how much work is required to make something easy for you to take part in.
Josepha 00:21:43 Right? There is this concept of the paradox of tolerance that really, really throws people for a loop. And it says that in order to have a very tolerant society, a very tolerant organization, you have to be extremely intolerant of intolerance. And I know that people are like, when I’m intolerant, you should be tolerant of my intolerance. But like, that is the thing that we always have to work against, not because all the time tolerance is specifically filled with malice, but human beings as a whole look for things that are familiar to them, people who look like them, projects they already have done before. Like, we look for the things that are comfortable to us because it is an indicator of safety. Like this part of our brain. The dumb dumb, the lizard part of your brain is just like a lizard. It keeps you alive, but also it can easily get overwhelmed.
Josepha 00:22:40 And the fastest shorthand that it has is, does that look like me? Does that seem like a thing I’ve done before? Have I done this? Have I seen it? Do I know it? Like, that’s, that’s how it, it shorthands that. Um, and so it will always be the case that we have people who are like, that is not like me and therefore I don’t like it. And you always have to work against it. Um, it’s like if you have a messy room and you declare to yourself, I am no longer making a mess in my room, great. That means you no longer have more mess, but you still also have to do the work to clean it up. Right. And also, you can’t actually just feel a room and be like, done. No more mess <laugh>. Like, things come in whether you like it or not.
Josepha 00:23:24 Yeah. Um, and so that is why we will always have to have this kind of release, whether it feels right or comfortable or not. And sometimes, especially if it makes us feel uncomfortable to have to have them. Um, because the thing is like when we do these releases, we are saying very plainly, like, people who feel this way and look this way and identify as this are welcome here. Not only are they welcome, but they’re active, they’re officially part of this. They’re running things when we can get them in here to run the thing. Like it is, it is the burden of proof to say that someone is safe with us is always with us, not with them to figure it out. And I think at the end of the day, like we, I know that people don’t always agree on what is the right thing and what is tolerant and what is intolerance like.
Josepha 00:24:21 We don’t always agree because we have different faiths and different belief systems and all those things. But I hope that WordPress as an organism, as an, as a community, as a whole, can all agree that we want and believe that human beings deserve basic dignity for what they are doing, what they hope to be able to do in the future, and what they want others to be able to do after them. Like, I hope that we agree that if you are in here doing this, you should have an easy, good and, and fruitful time doing it.
Josepha 00:24:59 Did I answer everything?
Michelle 00:25:03 I think you did. I’m, I’m gonna add a commentary too. That to be a good ally doesn’t just mean “come stand beside me” sometimes it says, “stand in front of me and let me stand back and let you have the spotlight for a bit, um, to show what you really can do.” And not just because it’s not about me, it’s about other people. And that’s hard for some people to, um, to learn because that’s not how we’re raised. Sometimes we’re raised about us and what to do to look out for ourselves, like you said, and does it look like me? Does it sound like me? Is this something that is comfortable for me? And, uh, do, do those people look like me? Do those people sound like me? All of those things. And so, yeah, it’s, it’s not always easy, but like we said, growth is work.
Josepha 00:25:42 Yeah. Sure is.
Michelle 00:25:43 Okay. A little more lighthearted question. Sure. I should probably know the answer to this, but how do we… Like I’m air quoting, if you’re listening, how do we decide on which jazz artist the release is named after? Is it open for input? Oh yeah. Is it a surprise at the release time? Do we vote on it? How does that happen?
Josepha 00:26:04 Oh yeah. So this is, um, for starters, it is a surprise on the day of the release. Like, I love it. Almost nobody knows about it. And for a long time it was literally nobody that knew about it <laugh> ahead of time. So that is something that Matt chooses. Matt chooses the jazzer every time and will let me know. Um, or the release lead, whoever it is that is, is, uh, available in that particular moment. Um, and we, and we go from there. So there are, there have been a few times where, and, and the 5.6 was one of them. And there was another one somewhere along the way where like I was so specifically focused on one type of thing that we were doing in that release that I was like, you must have this one. This must be our jazzer. And like I just went rogue and, and did some advocacy about it. <laugh> As I do. Um, and so yeah, that’s a, that’s a, a thing. Like that’s a, a Easter egg kind of thing from Matt to us. Uh, but yeah, in 5.6 I did say to him like, these are the top three that I would choose if I were you, for what it’s worth <laugh>.
Michelle 00:27:22 I love it. I maybe I didn’t know that, but I love knowing that now. And it’s like, Hmm. And it’s a little bit of, um, a little bit of an access into his jazz mind and, and who he listens to and appreciates. And I don’t own vinyl. I know that man owns vinyl. I’ve seen it like in pictures, I think of walls of vinyl. But yeah. That’s awesome. Um,
Josepha 00:27:44 I own vinyl, but I don’t have anything to play it on. So it just is theoretical vinyl <laugh>.
Michelle 00:27:51 And, and I have, we, I grew up with a wifi, but I do not have that anymore. This big huge, not wifi, I said wifi HiFi a
Josepha 00:27:58 High-fi Yeah.
Michelle 00:27:59 A hi-fi this giant piece of, and my daughter recently got one on buy nothing, sell nothing on a Facebook group. And she’s like, nice mom, have you ever heard of this thing? And I’m like, oh honey, I grew up with that thing <laugh>.
Josepha 00:28:10 Have you ever heard of eight tracks?
Michelle 00:28:13 You know? Exactly. Exactly. I love it. So fun. Oh, is there anything else you wanted to like, to share about the, I’m calling it the UG release now ’cause it’s so much faster than underrepresented gender release. Is it the UG release team? It just sounds like pretty cool. Anything else you’d like to share with us? Anything else about, you know, what we’re doing as far as representative work within WordPress? Um, the floor is yours. Yeah.
Josepha 00:28:37 Yeah. So I think that, so here is a thing that I want everyone to know and understand about the first time around on this. So the first time around on this, um, I asked everyone who was participating in it to help me identify the holes in the documentation that we have. Um, I said a couple, not a couple years ago, my gracious time, uh, at WordCamp Europe last year, not this year, so 2022. I said that I think that documentation is a DEI matter. Um, and I, and I think it is like it’s not the case that anybody’s gonna show up and like read the handbook front to back and then they know everything. It is a lot like reference material and source material for the, our onboarding that happens best when you’re doing that with another person, another existing WordPresser.
Josepha 00:29:27 Um, but they documented the absolutely living daylights out of that release process, um, in a way that helped to, uh, update our, like our level of effort tracker to be more honest and more consistent. Um, and, and they did a spectacular job of then also documenting the bits and pieces that are not specific to that release squad. Like things that were also happening in the related teams. ’cause all of the teams are related to everybody. Um, and while I would ask them to do that again for sure, because fresh eyes are so unusual in that particular type of process that when you have them, you absolutely have to say like, you’ve never seen it before. Tell us everything that was not confusing <laugh> and is confusing and that you’ve hated. Like you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta make sure that you, um, get that information while it’s available.
Josepha 00:30:29 But I, it also was one of those things that really pained me to have to ask them to do, um, underrepresented genders in and also like non-white folks, period across technology and across the workforce are frequently asked to do cleanup tasks or, or like basic administrative work. And sometimes not even asked. Just it is an expectation because no one else is gonna do it and someone’s got to, and it might as well be the lowest person we’ve got. And so I really hated that because it does really play into that stereotype. Also, I talked about it with this, uh, release squad two, especially. I talked with, um, my, my group of, of release coordinators, so Francesca Marano, Ebony Butler, and Chloe Bringman. I, I said like, I hear everyone calling for a full like maintenance release where we do nothing but just do bottle pickup, pick up trash in WordPress, <laugh> for four months and then ship this in November.
Josepha 00:31:38 And like, while I, I absolutely that’s a doable thing on a wishlist. It is a thing that I would want to be able to do. It’s not something that I want this group of people to have to say they did. You know what I mean? No, I get it. Yeah. Like, we’re not gonna say we did none of it. ’cause if there’s a bug worth fixing, we’re gonna fix it. Especially if it’s easy. It’s not even easy if it’s, if it fits in, in what we’re trying to accomplish. ’cause no easy problems exist in WordPress anymore, but I really worried about that for this release squad also, like so many of them also were like, we wanna pick up the trash. And I’m like, me too. <laugh>. But also like, let’s do, because we always are doing trash pickup and, and maybe we need to have just a standard group doing trash pickup someday, as opposed to like the people who always are expected to do that kind of, of invisible labor in the world.
Josepha 00:32:31 Uh, and I know, I know that for a lot of people, they’re gonna hear this podcast and be like, she is making it political or whatever. I know that. Um, but also, um, the truth, the fortunate fact is that I don’t find that, um, access to basic human rights is a political question for me. So I’m not making anything political. I’m just making it human. Um, and if someone wants to make it political, then they are welcome to do that over there where we can’t see them right now <laugh> because we’re really trying to get a big old release out the door.
Michelle 00:33:09 Exactly.
Josepha 00:33:12 That’s my thing. I wanna to share.
Michelle 00:33:14 I, if I can I add to that a little bit too?
Josepha 00:33:17 Of course. Always Michelle.
Michelle 00:33:20 I think that there are people who feel like this is a big huge organization. It’s a, the community, it’s a project that is a behemoth and so maybe I don’t matter because I’m one of however, a hundred thousand million whatever users there are. But the truth is every single one of us does and can have a voice in it. And I do realize that I have a bit of a bigger voice than some people do, but just my experiences at one WordCamp and writing about one post last year changed a lot of things this year. Yeah. As far as, um, accessibility, physical disability, accessibility at WordCamps, WordCamp Asia made sure that they were, you know, physically accessible. Yes. WordCamp Europe was in conversation with me the whole time. We had a squad on WordCamp US specifically for disability, and there’s a page in the handbook now.
Michelle 00:34:11 So just my advice to people is if you want to be involved, get involved. If you do see something that isn’t accommodating for any underrepresented group, say something, come forward. If you don’t feel like your voice is big enough, talk to somebody whose voice is bigger and make sure that people are aware of what’s happening. Because this is WordPress. For some, this is WordPress for all and squads like this, this release team is one way to help make sure that everybody’s voices are heard. So I want to thank you for the work that you’re doing, making it possible that others of us can do that work too. Yes.
Josepha 00:34:49 I’m gonna, I’m leaving a big break in here in case you don’t want to include this thing. Okay. So I left the big old break, so you can take it out if you wanna take it out. Um, but um, during, so during Covid, like this work was very hard, and I frequently was just not sure that we could all still stick together about it. And I found this writing. I, I have a, a professional coach and he sent me, um, this little thing, uh, written by Clarissa Pinkola Estes. It is called You Were Made for This. And this one line went through my head all the, the whole time we’re at the community summit and contributor day at WordCamp US. Um, and I’m gonna gonna read it word for word. I looked it up ’cause it’s very important, um, to read it word for word in my mind.
Josepha 00:35:41 And she says, ours is not the task of fixing the entire world all at once, but of stretching out to mend the part of the world that is within our reach. And it just, it’s just so true for one, that is just a true statement. And for two, like I think it really applies to WordPress and it’s exactly what you’re saying. Like, it’s very easy for us to say like, I, I personally am not having an impact on this. Like, some days I also feel like I am personally not having an impact on anything. And I, I have a lot of impact <laugh> you do around here. And so like, I, I think it’s important for us to remember that no one is called to do this work because one person can fix it all. Everybody is called to this work because it takes all of us to do it, you know?
Michelle 00:36:28 Absolutely. Absolutely.
Josepha 00:36:30 I’m gonna send you a link to this because it was, like, I go back to it probably once a week. There’s that and then the, the, what is it, sister Mary Fox or whatever it is, the, the unorthodox prayer that she wrote. Both of those things, I have them just around. And then also this thing, A Prayer For Blessing by Robert Bode. And my favorite line is it in it is, um, may we all be the creators and priests and nurses and heroes and may our song lift beyond these walls to light the world. That’s from 2017 Robert Bode. But anyway, I got really carried away with just like words I love in the world. I, so you can cut that part out if you need to.
Michelle 00:37:13 <laugh>. Oh, we’re keeping it, we’re keeping all of it. I love it. And I’m hoping that they will inspire others. Like you have inspired me with those words this morning, so
Josepha 00:37:21 Fingers crossed.
Michelle 00:37:22 Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for taking the time today. I truly appreciate you and I know others like me appreciate you as well. And the, the job is not always easy, but I know that you feel that it’s valuable and worth it. And, um, and thank you, thank for, thank you for all that you do.
Josepha 00:37:40 Yes. And thank you so much for having me today.
Michelle 00:37:43 It’s, it’s our pleasure. For sure. We’ll see you at the next event, hopefully whenever and wherever that will be.
Josepha 00:37:48 Yes, <laugh>.
Michelle 00:37:51 And we’ll see everybody else on the next episode of WP Constellations. Thank you.
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